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Dealerships are doing something shady?
Nickcageyoudon’tsay.gif

Dealerships are doing something shady?
Nickcageyoudon’tsay.gif
Nah, people are waking up and are simply resisting more and more to main stream media propaganda 🙂
They witness how the supposedly politically correct representants and leaders behave and simply realize it doesn’t make sense so they resist more and more to what they say even in the rare occurrences where what they say could actually makes sense.
The reason that they don’t want electric cars is that those don’t need the same amount of maintenance like oil changes etc.
The business model today is to sell cars at basically no profit or even loss and profit on aftermarket services. That’s why cars are requiring special tools for a lot of repairs – lock in the customer.
An electric car could be basically maintenance free aside from wear items like brake pads and wiper blades and you can’t charge premium for fixing that.

The reason that they don’t want electric cars is that those don’t need the same amount of maintenance like oil changes etc.
As I recall an oil change costs about $30, how much profit can there be in that? I guess with enough volume there’s a business model there but is that what is scaring off dealerships from selling EVs? Maybe it is more about not having people trained in maintaining an EV and the fear in having to pay for training and/or pay more per hour for people already trained in maintaining an EV.

An electric car could be basically maintenance free aside from wear items like brake pads and wiper blades and you can’t charge premium for fixing that.
Bullshit. Ever been to a Jiffy Lube? Their entire business model is to get you in the door with an advertised $20 oil cha
Dealerships love to draw you in with a cheap oil change and then tell you you need to spend $90 to replace the cabin filter or $300 to change the transmission fluid or whatever. Much more expensive prices than your local shop will charge
They replace belts, do the oil change and filters and a number of other kinds and charge you $300 to $600 each time for it.
$30 won’t even pay for the oil. You might get a liter of oil of a reasonable quality for $30.
Had your oil changed at a dealership lately? Try $100+ for synthetic on some cars.

An electric car could be basically maintenance free aside from wear items like brake pads and wiper blades
EVs use regenerative braking, so there is very little wear on the brake pads.
The brake pads in an EV almost always last the life of the car.
Tires wear out faster on EVs because of the quick acceleration. Tire wear may be lessened as we transition to self-driving cars, which can be programmed to accelerate more gently to extend the life of the tires.
How about an Apples to Apples comparison:
That puts the EV less than 100 lbs more than an ICE car which is roughly the same. (performance and size wise)
I’m not sure that the “EVs are heavier” stands up to closer scrutiny. Modern cars with all of their safety and convenience features are heavy
That’s because shoe-horning an electric motor and batteries into a chassis that was designed to have a a heavy combustion engine up front is a terrible way to design an electric car. They end up being unnecessarily heavy.
Never had oil, filter, belts, etc maintenance on my Teslas. (150,000 miles 9 years)
Brake pads don’t wear out. I hardly ever even step on the brake pedal (except when parked in order to put it in “gear”).
Only maintenance is tires which last about 40,000 miles.
EV cars also need oil changes, all the motors (4 of them on some models, but at least 2) are actually submerged in oil both for lubrication but also heat transfer. They also have gearboxes and hydraulic brakes and even regular run-of-the-mill oil filters.
Donâ(TM)t change the oil (which isnâ(TM)t the regular stuff you can find at Autozone) and you end up with a very expensive repair cost. Sure, they donâ(TM)t need it every 12,000 miles as a regular car does, the recommendation is still at leas
The problem is that many state laws mandate that all cars must be sold through local dealerships.
Tesla refuses to use dealerships, so if a Texan wants to buy a Tesla, they have to go to Oklahoma.
Some people like the extra handholding from dealerships, but most see them as parasites.
They should not be mandatory. Let people decide for themselves if they want to use a dealership or buy online.
There’s plenty of options for devices that type ASCII characters but apparently people don’t want them.
Settings -> General -> Keyboard -> Turn “smart” punctuation off.
FTA:
“While the EV market has grown in 2023, sales aren’t rising as fast as expected”
I’m sorry, what point are you trying to prove again? The market has expanded but not as fast as projected this year? So it’s still growing. Even with stubbornly high car prices and interest rates.
You buy Teslas online, not at a dealership.
Car is delivered at a service center (or directly to your door). Texas (and many other corrupt backward states) allow service centers, just not dealerships.
A Prius has a small traditional gasoline engine in it. I don’t think that’s the kind of technology the dealers are objecting to. The example of absurdity in the article specifically mentions a salesman selling an EV buyer an oil change package.
More durable? Less shit to break? Longer lasting? Sounds awful!

More durable? Less shit to break? Longer lasting? Sounds awful!
Of course the dealers will bring up all kinds of variations on “range anxiety” to make BEV ownership sound awful.
Then comes the limited options in BEVs. If people want a car then there’s plenty of BEV options but if they want a mini-van, light truck, some kind of “crossover” (whatever the hell those things are), or SUV then options can be limited. I read something about how there’s supposed to be all kinds of new BEV models coming soon, which was apparently reversed later with announcements of major autom

The example of absurdity in the article specifically mentions a salesman selling an EV buyer an oil change package.
That’s not an example of absurdity. That’s an example of fucking stupidity. People that literally have no idea what the hell they’re actually buying. The concept of a car running off electricity didn’t unplug from the wall yesterday. Wise the hell up before dropping $50K. Fucking hell.
This is also an example of corruption. Salesman should be fired for selling a blatant scam. Don’t give a criminal the benefit of the doubt assuming they’re just doing something “absurd”.
For every reliable ICEV there’s dozens of unreliable ones, and having the hybrid powertrain makes the ICE more reliable because it doesn’t have to move the vehicle from a stop by itself.
The linkage between the two isn’t all that complicated. It’s harder to get your head around it than to build it.
When the Prius gets old it’s neither the transmission nor the ICEV that needs replacement. It’s the battery. It costs roughly $3500. If the car is in good enough shape that’s not too hard to stomach, given the savings from MPG. Odds are the vehicle will only need 0 or 1 such replacements in its lifetime, and 0 engine or transmission rebuilds.
The equation is far from that simple. Simplicity does not make something reliable automatically. The EV causes reduced strain and wear on the components requiring the most maintenance and undergoing the most stress. Yes the end result makes them typically more reliable.
Some companies have done a decent job at simplifying this. Ford has the hybrid electric motor connected as a ring around the camshaft, which means that past the transmission, the drivetrain is identical to the non-hybrid counterparts.
I would say diesel engines with all the DEF/DEF/EGR, high pressure fuel rails, fuel heaters, and other stuff are an order of magnitude more complex than even a hybrid drive train, but diesels have been getting more reliable, even with all that complexity.
However, will these co
This is why I wish for more serial hybrids, like the RAMCharger, which hopefully will be out in 2025, or the BMW i-Series models with the extended range package. No linkages except for electrical and data between the IC engine functioning as a generator/alternator. The generator part can be removed or serviced without affecting the EV part of the vehicle.
Something like this will pretty much stop all the griping about EV range anxiety. No gas needed for short daily commutes, if one has a charger and can p

Something like this will pretty much stop all the griping about EV range anxiety.
Range anxiety is something people think will be a problem before they buy an EV, but realize isn’t a problem when they own an EV.

Range anxiety is something people think will be a problem before they buy an EV, but realize isn’t a problem when they own an EV. As long as you have your own charging solution and never have to rely on others.

As long as you have your own charging solution and never have to rely on others.
If you have no access to an electrical outlet at home, work, school, or shopping, then you might wanna rethink your decision to buy an EV.
An EV is a good choice for 95% of us, but not all.
If you have no access to electricity and/or need to drive 500 miles three times per week with no toilet breaks, an EV is not for you.

I don’t think this equation is so simple. A Prius has a lot of moving parts
Yes, it is that simple. A Prius is not an EV, it is a hybrid meaning that it has both an ICE and electric motors so so is more complex than either a pure EV or a pure ICE.

EVs just need an electric motor that is basically a wire coiled around an iron core placed in a permanent magnet without touching (so no metal on metal sliding like pistons in an ICE). It does not need pistons, spark plugs, a fuel pump, a starter motor, an engine block, a gearbox, an oil pump or even a transmission if it has one motor per wheel. It is vastly simpler than an ICE. In fact, an ICE contains all the basic parts of an EV since this is what the starter motor and pumps are. The only difference is that the battery and electric motors are much larger in an EV.

That does not mean that you cannot make in unreliable EV but it is much, much easier to make an EV reliable than an ICE reliable because there is so much less to go wrong.
Well, there’s the software.
The very first Prius had a gas engine which was not very different from ones Toyota had been making for many, many years. They knew how to build them and had long since made them reliable. The Prius then, after the first generation, stabilized and was produced for years. All the issues which came up were addressed and polished/refactored to make subsequent builds more reliable. Toyota really knows how to make Priuses now.
All the electric cars on the US market, with the exception of the Leaf and the Tesl
“An average gas-powered car, for example, needs an oil change about every six months, or every 5,000 to 7,500 miles. But many electric cars don’t require a major service until around 150,000 miles.”
An oil change is not a major service. Even the spark plugs in my little commuter car lasted 90,000 miles which I admit surprised me.
Spark plugs now have expensive electrode coatings that increase their lifespan, which is potentially a win overall of course because it reduces service costs. Except what automakers do with that extended lifespan is go ahead and make it more expensive to change the spark plugs. For example it’s a horrible PITA to change the #4 plug in a 11th gen F150 without dismounting the PCM. Or how on my Versa with MR18DE you can’t get to the spark plugs (except for one of them, #4 again I think but I’m not sure) withou

Or how on my Versa with MR18DE you can’t get to the spark plugs (except for one of them, #4 again I think but I’m not sure) without removing the intake manifold.
That’s nothing. The 2004 Outback H6 I owned required the engine to be partially dropped to change the plugs.
Since these days intake manifolds are made out of plastic and have a reusable seal it’s not as big a problem as it once would have been. And it’s not some Ford or something where the coil packs fail constantly, either… despite being totally wrapped in engine. I didn’t get the CVT so I am super impressed with this thing, Nissan’s still got it. It’s no 240SX, which is the Nissan I had last, but it has less body roll than a stock one…
It’s not just the oil, though, is it?
What about the brakes? EVs can probably go their life on the original brakes, but front brakes on ICE cars rarely last 30k miles.
Even being hardly used, brakes deteriorate. Friend just changed his, lots of meat but falling apart. My front rotors needed changing due to being pitted from corrosion, front rubber lines also needed changing due to rust on the clamps. The hydraulics also deteriorate whether used or not, the fluid absorbs water, which is corrosive. Little things like the caliper pins needing lubricated too.
So basically, they’ll still need some servicing, perhaps almost as much as my manual truck where I gear down instead of
None of those things should be happening on a 2-3 year old car. 2-3 years is the typical life of the front brakes on a modern car with average annual mileage.
If you haven’t replaced pads due to wear, then you are using your vehicle much less than the average. Your anecdote is not typical.
My last car went 110k miles before I sold it after about 10 years. The only major work was from the 2 times I got hit. But it was due for $6k work on a $12k blue book car. My other cars before it all went about 100k before needing major work.
My model 3 now has 41k miles. Only issue was a flat tire from road debris.
My current ICE barely gets road time, only 12k miles although it’s now 5 years old. The glue in my dash melted from too much sun. That was expensive but had nothing to do with the engine type.
“Due for $6k work” on a car with 110k miles? That’s pretty expensive for something you make sound like routine maintenance. What was it due for?
I used to belong to a local car club for vintage Mopars. We met at a local Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership once a month and the dealership would sponsor our annual car show with both space and with door prizes. The owner gave a talk once around ten years ago, he described dealership operations. The service department’s revenue paid for the entirety of dealership costs outside of the sales staff’s commissions. Everything from the lease for the property to the salaries of the janitorial staff came from the service department. The sales of new vehicles was profit.
I could see there being real concerns among dealers if EVs simply do not require as much care. And lacking crankcase oil, hydraulic power steering, traditional automatic transmissions with fluid-driven torque converters, engine block coolant circulating among sand-cast water jackets around cylinders, fuel pumps, and other systems specific to combustion-powered vehicles, the maintenance revenues from dealers are very likely to fall. As such they may simply not want to sell electrics.
It’s difficult to make a go on just suspension components, tires, alignments, and brakes.
they shouldn’t get a choice about what cars they sell if they’ve made it illegal to sell cars without a ‘dealer’.
don’t want to sell them, fine. those laws shouldn’t apply to ev’s then and we can buy directly from manufacturers in every state regardless of if they have dealers for ICE cars.
Wait, the brakes and steering arent hydraulic? Not even as a backup? So when they fail what? They completely fail? Wowzers.
Brakes are somewhat complex on an EV due to regen.
But steering is often purely electric assist – it’s mechanical as you would expect, but instead of power steering using a pump to assist in turning and lightening the steering wheel, it is fully electric. Basically as you turn the wheel, a motor provides the power to make steering easier.
Another form is turn by wire, which is in very hig
I used to work for a provider of software for dealerships, the turnover among dealership sales people is amazingly high. Most of the employee records were for former sales people who were there for just a few months. Dealerships seem like an unstable part of the economy that could be replaced with a website if it wasn’t for archaic relics that require dealerships for no good reason.
Sure. And you don’t need a dealership for that. Tesla had places you could go and test drive various models/options. Then you ordered it online. No “dealership” was involved.
Is it possible that even though the government is subsidizing these new toys people either don’t want them or cant afford them?

Is it possible that even though the government is subsidizing these new toys people either don’t want them or cant afford them?
It might be. But the evidence does not support it.
EVs are only going to get better and cheaper. The writing is already in the wall for ICE cars.

Is it possible that even though the government is subsidizing these new toys people either don’t want them or cant afford them?
It might be. But the evidence does not support it.
EVs are only going to get better and cheaper. The writing is already in the wall for ICE cars.
I have no doubt that EV’s will get better and cheaper. But they aren’t there yet because they come in a limited number of vehicle types, they are inconvenient for people who can’t charge at home, the batteries are very heavy, the insurance cost is higher, tires are very expensive, towing capacity sucks, range anxiety is real, performance in cold weather is a problem. I have no plans to replace any of my ICE cars with EV, and I would probably buy another ICE if I needed a vehicle tomorrow. No plans to eve
Complaining about heavy batteries is laughable when people are rolling around in $100k Grand Wagoneers that weigh 6000lbs. We get it, new things scare you.
At this point what company doesn’t sell an EV? They can’t all be wrong. Why are you concerned how other people choose to spend money?
Most of them earn through maintenance. Manufacturers even deliberately introduce flaws and planned malfunction to satisfy dealers so they push their cars over others. Sort of like MS making Windowsb deliberately shitty so they can push new versions of it every few years and the hardware people happily play along because they get to sell new hardware.
EVs are an order of magnitude less complex, at least. Dealers are cut out of their business models, that’s why they’re stalling. Sounds plausible to me.
Worse – EVs can be more dangerous to work on. You don’t always know where the current might be flowing, and you can’t smell a live exposed wire like you would gasoline leak.
It’s extra training for techs, extra equipment, and probably extra insurance. All for vehicles that, as you say, require less maintenance.
I’ve no doubt it’s pissing off dealerships because of a hit to the recurring profits, but they’re still doing OK off the initial sales.
That’s the real question. Dealers ultimately will sell people what people want to buy. They might succeed in getting some people who come in for an EV, to switch to an ICE car. But I doubt this will happen very often. EV buyers are primarily motivated by the environmental impact of their choice, they aren’t going to easily switch to ICE.
I look forward to that day. And as demand ramps up for EVs due to cost savings, dealers will *not* want to be left out of the action.

EV buyers are primarily motivated by the environmental impact of their choice
That was a bottom-of-the-list benefit when I bought my first EV, honestly.
And what *was* your primary motivation?
Environmental impact isn’t a big deal for me. But gas is $3.75 a gallon here and I can get hundreds of miles of capacity for $10 worth of electricity. That coupled with less maintenance, an EV makes much more sense.
This is beginning to become a motivator for some, though it is hampered by the still higher cost of an EV compared to an ICE car. It takes a while for the lower cost per mile, to offset the higher initial cost. As the price of EVs comes down, that equation will change, and I think this will bring with it a flood of new buyers.
Is this your personal experience? Or do you have data to back up this claim?
So the traditional car dealer model is going to go the way of the buggy whip some time in the future. I say good riddance. Never met a car salesperson I liked. About 15 years ago I visited a local car dealer to see what was on the lot. The salesman wouldn’t even talk to me if I didn’t first sit down with him and go “over my options”. A fucked up way to say he wanted to run my credit first to see if I was even worth dealing worth. I told the asshole to fuck off and I’ve never bought a car from a dealer since
Those damned Tesla dealers are always bait and switching me with an F150. I hate it when they do that.</sarcasm>
Of course they want to prevent moving to an All Electric future (or mostly electric). There is no benefit for them, as their current profit model will not be relevant anymore. They will either have to change and adopt to new customer needs, or like many other obsolete business before them they will try, and fail, to prevent that change.
I can go into a very long and detailed rant on how EVs are better for the environment. But that is not the point today. They are simply, better cars.
They have less maintenance burden, and hence much less need to come back to the dealership anymore. Except for maybe yearly checkups and tire rotation. And those yearly checkups are now done automatically over the air, hence that one is going away too.
With all those frustration in the recent years ($10,000 “market adjustment” surprise fees, or “dealer adjustment” when they are more honest), there is of course a backlash. They did their own graves, and it just will take some short period to actually put that old model to rest.
We really need to move away from cars altogether and back toward better public transit here in North America. More buses, more trains.
A friend of mine recently bought a very low mileage, year old “gently used” Toyota from a Nissan dealer. As soon as I heard it drive in an underground parking area, I realized you could hear a scraping noise as the wheels turned. Fortunately, we have a great mechanic. He found rust ridges on the front rotors, and said that a brake job was on the way in the not-too-distant future. He suggested we go back to the dealer and see what they’d do.
So off we went. They found the problem, but said the car could easily pass a safety (because, of course, guess who writes the rules). So “as a goodwill gesture”, they’d split the cost of replacing the rotors. At their dealership, of course. Cost: $860 Canadian for after market parts, even more for actual Toyota parts. Wasn’t it lucky we’d just come from our mechanic! He said he’d do the job, when it needed doing, for $200-$250 with after market parts. So the dealer was generously offering to let my friend pay twice the cost of the job just because they’re such great folks /s.
And we noticed something as she dropped me off in the underground parking. The scraping noise was gone. So they had obviously ground off the worst of the corrosion, probably in case we decided to go all legal on them. They played some other games, too, like keeping us waiting for over two hours, then telling her if she hadn’t driven the car every day during the three weeks she’d had it, the rust was her fault, then trying to question the safety of her snow tires (already checked and passed, and great tread depth). And that’s just one story. There’s another about their sister dealership, which we didn’t know until just now had the same owners, trying to pull a scam on the resale value of her older Toyota a few years back. And many years before that, a Ford dealer sold my mother a car with hidden rust problems. When they became obvious, the manager laughed in her face and said, “So sue us”.
So yeah, big dealerships are scum, and some smaller ones too. We need another distribution model, and we need it yesterday.
Every harley rider also feels like sound is power. When reality is sound is power wasted. Generating soundwaves wastes energy.
Very few people who drive 300-400 at a time spend 5 minutes topping off the gas. Uzually it is a 20-30 minute stop. You get gas, food, water etc. you walk for a couple of minutes. Stretch ypu legs. Now you are at fast charging times.
Also very little driving is straight long haul. Mostly it is 1-2 hour stretches. Gping 1,200 miles in a day isnt unheard of but rare.
I need my t

Every harley rider also feels like sound is power. When reality is sound is power wasted. Generating soundwaves wastes energy.
Do you ride? I’ve had sport bikes and cruisers and the sound, the feel, and the manual shifting are an integral part of the experience.
There is no way in hell I would buy an E-motorcycle.

Range (“only” 160 miles) is great and fast charging or even public charging in general is a non-issue because I need it so rarely.
Yeah, because your needs match everyone else’s.
That’s your flaw right there. You think that every EV has to meet the every possible need of every possible customer.
No.
The car he got meets his requirements. Excellent. It’s a good car for his needs. If your needs are different, get a different car.

Stop touting electric cars as they’re a one-size-fits-all. They do not. They’re good for some people. Not for everyone.
>Stop touting electric cars as they’re a one-size-fits-all. They do not. They’re good for some people. Not for everyone.
Ya, but the point is: those cars meet the needs of MOST people, by far most people. So if they don’t meet your needs, it’s you who are the outlier.
It’s like the fact that very few people need a SUV for day-to-day use.
Of curse, SUVs are the biggest selling segment of the market in North America, and everyone claims they need one.
But they overwhelmingly don’t.

I did Google Maps for a San Diego to Pomona trip. 117 miles.
This trip is actually easy to do in a Tesla. There are charging stations everywhere in that area: https://supercharge.info/map [supercharge.info] , and even without fast charging, all but the cheapest Teslas can comfortably do a full round-trip of that length. It’s doable on the cheapest Tesla, but it’ll be a bit too close.

The next generation of EVs will all match or exceed current Teslas. So it really makes sense to just wait a couple of years.
They are FANTASTIC for most people who own a garage. If you have a garage and haven’t bought a cheap old EV beater, you do not know what you’re missing.
“Stop touting electric cars as they’re a one-size-fits-all” is a straw man. Nobody is doing that. The vast bulk of garage owners is not everyone by a LONG shot, and the EV community knows very well that people without garages have a crap time with EVs. But we also know most people complaining about EVs don’t have one and share other common traits.

The vast bulk of garage owners is not everyone by a LONG shot
Bzzt! Wrong! See this [pewresearch.org]. I’d venture that everyone living in rural and suburban has at least a one-car garage. I live in semi-rural and have a 4-car garage. Years ago (1990-2000) I lived in Westchester, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, and back then I had a 2-car garage. Everyone had garages. So, with 31% of the U.S. population living in cities (and assuming that some of those also have garages) the number of garage owners dwarfs folks who do not have a garage.
Even just having a private driveway works too. Cars can charge outside just as easily

Right now non-Tesla vehicles are in a weird state. They are acceptable, but not that good. The fast charging story is awful, and the vehicles’ range is barely adequate. But what’s more, the next generation of EVs is just round the corner, and it will be significantly better. Newer cars will have Tesla charging
compatibility, better batteries, longer range.
The great thing about statements made on the internet is that you can look them up [staticflickr.com].
In the range chart from the original page [blogspot.com], Tesla has the top 4 spots (about 300+ miles), and 8 of the top 12 spots in the chart. All of Tesla’s models are in the top 1/2 of the chart, and for comparison none of the Nissan Leaf models are in the top 1/2.

But what’s more, the next generation of EVs is just round the corner, and it will be significantly better.
Traditional automakers are cancelling their plans right and left, and two independent makers (Rivian and Lucid) are skirting bankruptcy [fortune.com].
Tesla production is around 2 million per
It’s just a press release so far, but if it lives up to the hype, Toyota’s butt plug powered car [jalopnik.com] with solid state batteries will have a 900 mile range. That will be a pretty major advance (though there’s still the issue of where to charge it if you rent, and twice the range means twice the charging time).
The fast charging is generally not due to the vehicles. I know that doesn’t change your peeve, but call it what it is. The charging market is a gold rush and an amazingly profitable business in theory — they’re marking up a product by 500% or more and don’t have to even ship it. Of course a bunch of incompetent carpet baggers/ambulance chasers/pick your own aphorism jumped in and produced a system which doesn’t work.
But you’re almost never going to use it anyhow. You’ll charge in your garage overnight,
This used to be a case a few years back, now I’m seeing a lot of non-Tesla EVs, from BMWs, to Mercedes, to Nissan Leafs, and other brands.
Tesla has one thing that gives them an advantage. No dealers to worry about, and you don’t get the feeling you got screwed. You go to their website, pick out a model, optionally pick financing, and it gets delivered. No having to play the Three Card Monte game with the dealer, the “manager”, the “finance manager”, and other people, just get your car and go.
Just the abo

Not sure why one needs to be âoerich enoughâ for a home charger. My charger was in the trunk and came with the car. I paid an electrician $550 to run a 220 outlet so that same charger could charge much faster. Youâ(TM)re right though. Your three minute fill up is me spending 15-20 minutes on the road. Which I personally donâ(TM)t mind.
Rich enough isn’t about the cost of a charger. It means “rich enough to have a steady place to plug it in”.
Yeah, but so what? You have to take breaks from driving anyhow. And when you fill with gas, you have to stand there and babysit your car while it fills, instead of just plugging in and going into the store for other things. It works out about the same.
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